Preparing budget 5513 build

[calmrecog]

Hi,

I am new to forum, and have read lots of interesting stuffs. I initially thought about getting Noob factory explorer, but realised I am more dragged into vintage models (e.g old GMT Master 1675 Espresso).

As I think I will not be that satisfied with BP GMT vintage as it is, I will in the future build something more proper. What TS offers seems quite nice, but unfortunately they don’t sell any Espresso bezel version.

Non-date Submariner seems to be much simpler to start with as it does not require much functionality in the watch. Thus, I concluded to try to build by doing some simple mods to the Cartel/JKF 5513.

I’d really appreciate if someone in the forum who are more experienced with me can shed some lights on following:

1. I will order Cartel/JKF 5513 as a base, but ultimately want to use 5512 vietnam dial or from Yuki’s. Can dials be compatible between 5513 and 5512?

(I want my watch to look similar to this:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/msolomon/2018/06/04/the-secret-history-of-steve-mcqueens-rolex-submariner-phillips-auction/amp/)

2. It seems there are 2 versions of Cartel 5513 with different movements. Would 2836 significantly more reliable than 2813? It seems the price difference is almost $100 between these 2.

3. For the budget build/mod, do you guys think Cartel/JKF 5513 is a recommended choice a base? Or, am I outdated and is there any better available option?

Would appreciate your comments! Thank you.

 

[Raddave]

tripdog would be able to answer your question , i think

 

[tripdog]

1. White print ( gen' spec') 5512 & 5513 dials are the same diameter, but they are slightly too large for the Cartel 5512/5513 cases. You will need to remove about 0.4 mm from the outside of the dial, or widen the dial aperture in the case by the same amount - the first option is the easiest, using 400 grade W & D paper.

I don't recommend you use Yuki dials, unless money is an issue - they are not good quality, and aren't very close in appearance to a genuine dial. Rubyswatches dials are more expensive but are better quality and look fairly close to the real thing.

2. The 2836 is a slightly better quality movement, but it's also a high beat movement, whereas the genuine 5512/55123 had a low beat movement - as is the Asian 21j / DG2813. Again it comes down to budget - the best option would be to put in a low beat Swiss ETA, but you need to know what you are doing before you start changing movements etc.

3. The Cartel vintage Subs are a perfectly acceptable base for a build, there are other options out there - MBW etc, but they are more expensive and not hugely superior - everything on offer can only be considered to be a base from which to work.

Buy a good quality replacement dial, a set of hands from Raffles Time, a pearl from Athaya Vintage Parts, an aftermarket crystal and the watch will be already greatly improved over the basic Cartel.

 

[calmrecog]

Raddave tripdog
Brilliant, and very many thanks for your helps and comments!

For the movement, I will then stick with 2813 as a start, and separately purchase Swiss ETA at later stage.

By the way, for the dial, considering that I may need to remove about 0.4mm from the outside of the dial, should I feel comfortable if it says "to fit caliber 1520, 1530" or diameter being 26mm?

 

[tripdog]

Raddave tripdog
Brilliant, and very many thanks for your helps and comments!

For the movement, I will then stick with 2813 as a start, and separately purchase Swiss ETA at later stage.

By the way, for the dial, considering that I may need to remove about 0.4mm from the outside of the dial, should I feel comfortable if it says "to fit caliber 1520, 1530" or diameter being 26mm?

These are references to the Rolex movement calibre - you'll need to remove the dial feet as they will be in the wrong position for any movement other than a Rolex 1570 etc. Use 'dial dots' to fix the dial to the face plate of the movement.
The early 5513 gilt dials were 26 mm, the later white print dials were a little larger so it's very likely you'll still need to shave a little off to get it to fit in a Cartel case - but the factories will sometimes have a batch of cases/bezel assemblies or whatever which have very sightly different specs to what they were previously selling - you just need to accept that minor modifications will be required to get everything to fit together.
Wait till you have everything in front of you so you can see what fits what doesn't, before you start modifying stuff;

 

[jackflash]

I would recommend a 5513 feet-first Helenarou dial, ca. $60. For ca. $20 extra they will lume it for you in the lume-colour of your choice. It will fit a Cartel case, being 26mm in diameter.

 

[calmrecog]

tripdog Thank you very much for the detailed explanation! It’s really helpful. Yes, I think I will need to wait until I have some parts in front of me to know better.

jackflash This dial looks good to me, and should be really convenient if it can fit ETA move! I googled their website, but it seems this is not on the listing. Would you be able to explain bit more how can I order one of these from them? Thank you!

 

[jackflash]

tripdog Thank you very much for the detailed explanation! It’s really helpful. Yes, I think I will need to wait until I have some parts in front of me to know better.

jackflash This dial looks good to me, and should be really convenient if it can fit ETA move! I googled their website, but it seems this is not on the listing. Would you be able to explain bit more how can I order one of these from them? Thank you!

Yeap, it’s for an ETA. If you that route I would replace/sell the 2836 and go for a low beat 2846.

You need to email Helenarou. The branded dials aren’t listed on the website.

 

[calmrecog]

jackflash Thank you so much for the intel.

Do you have any recommendation for the hands too?

 

[T3RM1N4T0R]

jackflash Thank you so much for the intel.

Do you have any recommendation for the hands too?

Listen to tripdog
Period


Sent from my Noob v9.5

 

[jackflash]

jackflash Thank you so much for the intel.

Do you have any recommendation for the hands too?

For an ETA movement this handset is great value and has pretty good proportions. The lume area on the minute hand is a little short compared to a gen though. Naturally you would need to relume them to match the dial.
http://www.jkhorological.com/Product-detail.php?product-id=2476

Simpler, would be to ask Helenarou to lume a handset too to match the dial. However, the proportions of their handsets compared to gen aren’t that great unfortunately.
https://www.helenarou.com/silver-5513-silver-benz-super-lume-watch-hands-et5513280428242836.html

Bezel insert from Yuki is a good budget option:
https://m.yukiwatch.com/catalog/item/9020785/10270361.htm

Pearl from Athaya, they do need some trimming though:
http://parts.athayavintage.com/product/aftermarket-rolex-pearl-dot-pips/

Also from Athaya, the 702 crown and tube:
http://parts.athayavintage.com/product/aftermarket-702-crown-and-tube/

For the crystal there are a couple of options. For a Superdome T19, these from Michael Young are the best. A little pricey though:
http://www.classicwatchrepair.com/english/shop/rolex-5513-submariner-replacement-domed-crystal

For a look closer to a T19 service crystal, the PA 462-66 from Ofrei is a good option:
http://www.ofrei.com/page419.html


You’ll also need to drill out the lug holes to accept the fat spring bars:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/FAT-2-SPRI...263848?hash=item25734dbaa8:g:2EwAAOSw9Gdck5RP


Together with the Cartel 5513, plus ETA 2846 movement, that’s about it for a decent budget build.

My build with above specs in an MBW case. If you’re lucky enough to find one of those in the M2M sales section, go for it.

And, a build with re-shaped Cartel case.

 

[calmrecog]

jackflash Fantastic. Thank you so much for the thorough list. I am listing down the parts I need and deciding what to order. I wish the outcome looks similar to what you have built. They look really great.

For the build order, I was wondering if I can decide to change the movement even after I finish changing everything else. Or, would it be efficient and much easier to get ETA 2846 before I start building?

Also, for the crystal, it seems there's another option, "Sternkreutz Plexi" (https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Sternk...var=431639864385&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649). Do you have any opinion on this comparing to other 2 that you mentioned? In fact, what would be the most accurate diameter (e.g. 30.3mm 30.4mm)?

Thank you!

 

[jackflash]

I would go for either of the crystals I’ve already mentioned. Naturally there are others out there, but those 2 offer the correct characteristics of a superdome T19 and the service T19 crystal.

You can pick up an ETA 2846 movement, or a movement from a donor watch, off ebay. Apart from a service. Best practice would be to remove the date wheel and date change mechanism too.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Geniune-et...409727?hash=item2cd1434cbf:g:a4cAAOSwFbpas7C8

If you want the correct crown action, you need to file off the small, middle protrusion, on the setting lever spring. This will give you a 2 position crown action, instead of 3 for date changing.

Also, if you’ve the budget. It’s worth taking a look at the 5513 case from Ruby. It would certainly save the bother and cost of getting the Cartel modded if you don’t intend to do it yourself.
http://rubyswatch.com/products/c5513-1-|-vintage-|-submariner-|-5513-|-case-2136

 

[calmrecog]

jackflash Thank you so much for your notes. I will forget about the others and stick with the T19-like crystals you mentioned.

If I go for Ruby's case, which I think is same as Vietnam case (https://forum.replica-watch.info/fo...x-vintage-5513-case-without-modding-helenarou), may I expect that the following works won't be necessary, which I would try to get it done for cartel watch anyway?

- Drilling lug hole to install fat spring bars
- Crown/tube replacement with the parts from Athaya Vintage parts
- Some reshaping in the future

If this is the case, then, for this route, the only additional work is to source the ETA movement which I can't take from the cartel watch I guess. Do you roughly know the price of Ruby's case, although I may drop them an email to find out?


On the other hand, how about what helenarou offers (https://www.helenarou.com/5513-complete-watch-with-eta-28242-standard551328242.html)? If I can bear wrong lug and movement, then I may need to change only the pearl, crystal, and hands in the future from this? Probably, this is still not very economical considering I have to be stick with the wrong lug forever without having any future option.

 

[jackflash]

If you buy the Ruby case. Yes, you will avoid the mods required with the Cartel. You could go for her dial too. Drop Ruby a email to get the price. Then all you'd need to pull the watch together would be the ETA 2846 movement and handset.

I wouldn't go for the Helanarou case, the proportions are off.

 

[calmrecog]

jackflash Thank you so much for all your helps. I will probably go with Ruby's case, as I do not want to perpetually regret with my watch when I build one. Can you please see if the below list may work well with each other?

- Ruby's watch case
- Low beat 2846 movement (from eBay, it seems it costs around $130)
- ETA movement adapter for the case from Yuki

- Helenarou Dial (26mm for ETA) - Otherwise, in case I go with Ruby's dial, then should I need any sort of adapter?

- Raffles Time Hands
- Crystal from Ofrei (PA 462-66, 30.45mm)
- Fat spring bars from Yuki (20mm)


I hope my list is almost thorough, so that I can start collecting the parts

Thank you!

 

[jackflash]

jackflash Thank you so much for all your helps. I will probably go with Ruby's case, as I do not want to perpetually regret with my watch when I build one. Can you please see if the below list may work well with each other?

- Ruby's watch case
- Low beat 2846 movement (from eBay, it seems it costs around $130)
- ETA movement adapter for the case from Yuki

- Helenarou Dial (26mm for ETA) - Otherwise, in case I go with Ruby's dial, then should I need any sort of adapter?

- Raffles Time Hands
- Crystal from Ofrei (PA 462-66, 30.45mm)
- Fat spring bars from Yuki (20mm)


I hope my list is almost thorough, so that I can start collecting the parts

Thank you!

Sounds good. Check with Ruby if a movement ring is included before you order the adapter from Yuki (you may not need it). You will need movement clamps, screws and a dial spacer though. Ruby’s dials are for gen movements so you will need to clip the feet and use dial-dots to affix to the movement. Rafflestime hands aren’t as well proportioned as JKs offer as in the link posted previously.

 

[bibby1]

Do ETA's fit in these ruby cases? Is the stem height different than a gen 1520,1530,1570?

 

[bibby1]

Also, Sorry for multiple posts on this thread, but another question: How are the crowns on the ruby cases? Are Athaya crowns recommended over the original crown that comes with the case. Do the tubes require modification to the case (tapping?)

 

[calmrecog]

You will need movement clamps, screws and a dial spacer though. Ruby’s dials are for gen movements so you will need to clip the feet and use dial-dots to affix to the movement.

Thank you jackflash again! If I end up getting Helenarou dial for 26mm ETA movement, then I guess I will need dial spacer and screws right? Or, do I still need to get something like these?
- Dial spacer: http://rafflesdials.com/10-pcs-plas...36-movement-to-mount-the-rolex-day-date-dial/
- Screws: http://rafflesdials.com/10-small-st...-2824-or-2671-automatic-movement-spacer-ring/

For a movement clamp, are you referring to something like this?
- Movement clamp: https://www.amazon.com/Watchmakers-Movement-Holder-Watches-Vintage/dp/B07LC9B9K9

Do ETA's fit in these ruby cases? Is the stem height different than a gen 1520,1530,1570?

I would appreciate the feedback for this, if possible. tripdog jackflash

How are the crowns on the ruby cases? Are Athaya crowns recommended over the original crown that comes with the case.

bibbyjustin1 I've read from some other forum that the crown of Ruby's case is already at a fair quality that's similar to what Athaya offers.