eBay's authenticity guaranteed - is it really?

[Jeffrey Lebowski]

There are a couple of Breitling Navitimers on eBay that I'm interested in. Both have no papers but the sellers advised they would go through eBay's authenticity check and arrived with an authenticity certificate.
That made me wonder on how exactly the authenticity is assured? Do they open watches and check the movements? If that's the case would they run the water resistance test having opened and resealed the watch?
Do they really open the watches though? What if the watch is still under a warranty - do they open it voiding the warranty?
If they don't open them then surely I could end up with a franken watch or even worse - a rep movement? Plus I heard once it goes through that check the buyer is not even able to dispute the sale with eBay.
Does anyone have any experience with this process?

 

[Jeffrey Lebowski]

Noone? Seriously?

 

[koosh]

if you're in the UK it doesn't matter- the program only applies if you're a buyer in the US.

 

[Jeffrey Lebowski]

What on earth are you on about? This service applies to the UK, mate!

 

[koosh]

from the TOS. maybe ebay.co.uk has a different page?

 

[Jeffrey Lebowski]

It has, and it applies 100%
https://pages.ebay.co.uk/authenticity-guarantee-watches/

 

[Replisimio]

Indeed, I have used it four times as a seller and once as a buyer so far in the last few weeks in the U.K.
Some guys really shouldn’t be aloud out of the house!


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[Replisimio]

I have been unable to tell if they have opened the Tudor Pelagos I bought on there but I knew what I was buying anyway and of course the four Omegas I sold were gen lol!


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[Jeffrey Lebowski]

I have been unable to tell if they have opened the Tudor Pelagos I bought on there but I knew what I was buying anyway and of course the four Omegas I sold were gen lol!

Yea... That's what I'm worried about. If they don't open watches then how do I know if the movements are correct and the watch is not some kind of a franken. I don't mind frankens but if I'm to spend a few grand on a watch I would like to know 100% what I'm buying.
I'm surprised this subject hasn't been extensively covered on this forum (or maybe it has been but I struggle to use the find option on my mobile chrome version as the page is painfully slow).

 

[Datejust24]

I’ve seen A BUNCH of blatantly fake snowflakes at suspiciously low prices which indicate that eBay doesn’t check shit…I know this doesn’t help here but, worth mentioning..


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[nipe]

The watch gets sent to a 'Certified Watchmaker' (basically the cheapest they can find) who will then evaluate the if the watch is gen based on his very limited expertise. Likely he will open the caseback to see if there's a movement with the engraved brand on it to check for "authenticity", won't bother greasing the seals and then close it back up again. I wouldn't trust the service one bit. Add to the fact of an unprofessional handling your new purchase, very likely to cause damage to lugs from removing a bracelet because these guys simply don't care.

 

[Jeffrey Lebowski]

Thanks. My little, eBay Breitling (no papers, lower price) revolution is over then. Screw them.

 

[JayBee0815]

There is a very good Podcast about this (unfortunately in German): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzTfZowGjqc

The key points:
- It is only checked whether the watch corresponds to the article description
- The check is short and superficial
- It is unlikely that ebay's service provider has any qualified staff at all.
- At least in Germany, the tracking indicates that this check is not carried out at all.
- It is unlikely that HQ reps are detected during this check.
- It can be ruled out that counterfeit vintage watches will be detected during this check.

The expert (himself a watch dealer) suspects that this is a business idea by ebay to charge the sellers for this pointless check in the future.

 

[Futzorr]

There is a very good Podcast about this (unfortunately in German): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzTfZowGjqc

The key points:
- It is only checked whether the watch corresponds to the article description
- The check is short and superficial
- It is unlikely that ebay's service provider has any qualified staff at all.
- At least in Germany, the tracking indicates that this check is not carried out at all.
- It is unlikely that HQ reps are detected during this check.
- It can be ruled out that counterfeit vintage watches will be detected during this check.

The expert (himself a watch dealer) suspects that this is a business idea by ebay to charge the sellers for this pointless check in the future.

Thanks for the pointers. Thats horrible. How does a buyer stand in the case of a fake watch? Could the seller just claim that the buyer had modified it upon arrival and refer to the authenticity certificate?

 

[WatchSmith.US]

Quite frankly I don't think any TRUE authentication can be done without completely disassembling every part on the watch. And it should be done (in the case of Rolex) by a Rolex watchmaker at a service center.
It's too easy to mix 50% replica parts in a gen movement, or vice versa, then you have a movement that might run great but has 50% value or less, and might be rejected for service by the manufacturer because of the replica parts it contains. Movements must be deeply forensically examined to know if every part is authentic. Yes you can open the back and eyeball everything that's visible, but there's way more to it than what meets the eye.

 

[JayBee0815]

Thanks for the pointers. Thats horrible. How does a buyer stand in the case of a fake watch? Could the seller just claim that the buyer had modified it upon arrival and refer to the authenticity certificate?

Thats a good question. As this "certificate" has no legal significance I guess the buyer has the same rights like without it. The bigger problem is, that this "certificate" will probably lead to the fact that in the future on ebay many buyers lull themselves into a deceptive security. An at least equally big problem will come when these watches are then offered by the buyer as Gens at some point. The legal consequences are interesting. Who is liable? If the seller has no fraudulent intent, but really did not know that he sells a rep and ebay does not act as a neutral marketplace as usual, but "legalizes" the trade with a certificate, ebay is also legally responsible when it comes to recourse later. Therefore, I hardly think that this system will survive ;-)

 

[JayBee0815]

Quite frankly I don't think any TRUE authentication can be done without completely disassembling every part on the watch. And it should be done (in the case of Rolex) by a Rolex watchmaker at a service center.
It's too easy to mix 50% replica parts in a gen movement, or vice versa, then you have a movement that might run great but has 50% value or less, and might be rejected for service by the manufacturer because of the replica parts it contains. Movements must be deeply forensically examined to know if every part is authentic. Yes you can open the back and eyeball everything that's visible, but there's way more to it than what meets the eye.

Yep. And how many hours does a watchmaker set aside for a detailed check? In the video linked above, you can see that just two hours passed between arrival and onward shipping. In these two hours, all the logistics, the check by the "watchmaker" and the filling out of the certificates were done on site. Sounds more like visual inspection and assembly line work.

 

[Futzorr]

Thats a good question. As this "certificate" has no legal significance I guess the buyer has the same rights like without it. The bigger problem is, that this "certificate" will probably lead to the fact that in the future on ebay many buyers lull themselves into a deceptive security. An at least equally big problem will come when these watches are then offered by the buyer as Gens at some point. The legal consequences are interesting. Who is liable? If the seller has no fraudulent intent, but really did not know that he sells a rep and ebay does not act as a neutral marketplace as usual, but "legalizes" the trade with a certificate, ebay is also legally responsible when it comes to recourse later. Therefore, I hardly think that this system will survive ;-)

The legal consequences regarding a re-sell would depend on the national law.
In most countries you would be able to prove you did not have the intent to comit fraud due to the fact that you have a garantue issued by ebay and you could show a transcription of the watch in the current market value +/-..

however the issue lies that there would only be one loser - you, seeing as ebay would probably just state that you were able to mod it upon arrival (if the rep is interior parts).
if rep parts are used on dial, hands, bezel etc, there would be a chance you could point to the sale pictures.. if they in this case are actually pictures of the specific watch and not pics of gen watches..

summa summarum.. your better off buying a rep

 

[KOT1917]

Speaking of "guarantee", I suspect a situation in which, if the guarantor makes a mistake, he pays.
I have no doubt that eBay will not pay for all cases of trying to sell rep under the guise of gen, in which the seller is intentionally or not intentionally fraudulent, eBay performs mass verification of any watch by random people, and the buyer later reverifies the authenticity in AD.

Therefore, I would treat any "guarantee of authenticity" as just another opinion, and I would trust as much as I can to the specific person / organization that deals with it.

But this is a matter of trust and opinions, but by no means, not something on which you can guarantee the absence of monetary losses.

Guarantor - pays in case of failure, in other cases, it's just advice.

On Chrono24, the team does not shoot fake PAM, after all the evidence, photos, comparisons, and claims that they understand and state from the photo: This is genuine. And also so says the seller, who has a higher rating than me.
They do it poorly, but professionally, and I would never believe that ebay will do this function better.

 

[vrrr]

Thanks for the pointers. Thats horrible. How does a buyer stand in the case of a fake watch? Could the seller just claim that the buyer had modified it upon arrival and refer to the authenticity certificate?

I'm pretty sure the watch is sealed. If buyer breaks seal, no ebay recourse.